An NDTV panel discussion on the rise of stay-at-home fathers in India.
Our society is witnessing a growing new trend — the phenomenon of ‘stay-at-home dads’, where fathers take on the role of primary caregivers to their children while the mothers take on the role of the primary breadwinners. Is our society ready for this role reversal?
Transcript
This transcript was generated with AI-assisted transcription and may contain occasional transcription or speaker-attribution errors.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to The Big Bite, where we’re going to be breaking away from all of those subjects which you’ve no doubt heard too much about and which have been debated to death. We’re going to try and do something completely different today. We’re looking at an interesting new trend in society that we want to discuss and debate and see if it’s something that is really going to catch on, and that’s a trend of stay-at-home dads.
Why should it only be the moms who stay at home and look after the children and the dads go out and work? Can it be done the opposite way? And if so, who’s likely to have more problems with it, society, the dad, the mom, the kids?
How’s it all going to work out? And by the way, this is a trend that is in many areas starting to catch on. So we’ve got a great panel joining us to take us through all aspects of this particular discussion.
I want to start off by welcoming Khushboo, who’s a well-known actor, mother of two girls and thoroughly enjoyed bringing them up. We have Gautam John joining us from Bangalore, who spent, what Gautam said, nine months looking after your baby girl Anushka, and you’re very happy doing that and you want to continue being a stay-at-home dad. Am I summing it up correctly?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, she’s nine months old and I’ve been doing this three months now, but you’re right about me not wanting to give this up.
Speaker 1: All right. Fine. Well, Mohit Satyanand is also a financial analyst, been a stay-at-home dad, what, 16 years now?
Actually, you gave up a really intense job and then decided to do things slightly differently. We’re going to be asking you why you did so. Rahul Eashwar, wonderful to have you joining us again, Pooja Bedi, thanks a lot for being with us.
I want to quickly go through the other guests and get all of your views in one by one. Dr. Amit Sen is joining us, who’s going to take us through some of the psychiatric aspects of this. What does it actually do for child and adolescent psychiatry, which is an area which you have been specializing in at some length.
Nandita Rao is joining us, who’s an advocate and looked at a lot of international law. We’ll be asking you what happens in other countries as well. And Sourabh Sarkar joins us again, a spokesperson for SAVE, the Indian Family Foundation, who is firmly convinced that men in general are treated unfairly by society, and this may be another aspect of that.
So before we get you to explain that, Gautam, why don’t I actually start off with you? It’s a different way of doing things. You have a baby, eventually your wife went back to work, but you said you’re thoroughly enjoying doing what you’re doing right now, and you wouldn’t have it any other way.
What are the sort of challenges that you faced, what are the questions you had to deal with, and have they been different or greater than what the normal stay-at-home mom would feel? And I use the word normal with inverted commas.
Speaker 2: Well, I think within my immediate friends and family circle, there has been nothing but encouragement and support for this. No surprise, no naysayers either. In the larger universe in which I tend to wander around, yes, there have been questions asked about where is the mother, are you a single father, and it’s been kind of awkward because I’m pretty sure no woman who’s walking around with her child will be asked such questions.
But on the whole, I think everyone has been incredibly supportive, people have reached out to ask what the journey’s been like and what I could share with them. So yeah, it’s been absolutely fabulous. In terms of learnings, I’m learning how exhausting it is looking after a child, even when you have the luxury of help.
Speaker 1: So you sometimes describe yourself as Anushka’s slave, a lot more satisfying than being the slave of some boss somewhere?
Speaker 2: It’s certainly more rewarding, it’s definitely more rewarding. I have to admit, I haven’t yet had a boss who has asked me to clean up their throw-up, so there is that, but with Anushka, I have to admit, there is nothing that has been a task too hard to do as yet.
Speaker 1: Alright, great. Kushmukh, let me get you in and get everyone else’s take on this. What’s wrong with this trend?
Speaker 9: Nothing wrong with this trend, I think it’s just the individual’s mindset which says, a father wants to stay at home, he’s most welcome, and if a mother wants to stay at home, that’s also fine. I think it depends between the couples as to how they decide to lead their lives and how they want to bring up their children. Okay, Rahul?
Speaker 7: Until last century, we believed in the idea of male supremacy, then the paradigm of male-female equality came. Now, we are moving into male-female individuality with equal respect. And let me categorically tell, science categorically establishes a difference between male and female brain, whereas even after motherhood, a female brain grows to accommodate the need of the child.
So the best thing would be, stay at home, mother, and work outside home, dad.
Speaker 1: So you are saying that biologically, and because of the way the human body is and the human brain is, you are saying biologically, a dad can’t be as effective in being a stay at home parent as a mother can be.
Speaker 7: That can be a very effective parent. And what British Psychological Association and American Psychological Association says, there are four dimensions of difference, processing, chemistry, structure, and activity of human brain. Male and female brain are wired differently.
For example, the female can understand the body language of a child better. After the hormone releases in her brain after her pregnancy, she is better wired to understand the intuitions of the child. So a mother can be a better mother than a father, and a father can be a better father than a mother.
So let them have their specific roles, let them be a good father and a good mother, why mix these roles?
Speaker 1: Can I ask in the psychiatry of this, would you agree with what he said?
Speaker 6: No, no, no. In fact, there is very recent evidence over the last 5-7 years that there are changes that happen in the body and the brains of fathers as well, and that starts even during the pregnancy. And what they have found is that many fathers who are really closely involved begin to get similar kind of symptoms like nausea or loss of appetite, or an increase in it.
And they have studied their hormonal levels, and a particular hormone called prolactin, which is called the mothering hormone, that actually increases in the systems of fathers. And they have also…
Speaker 1: So you are saying biologically a dad could do the job of being a single stay-at-home parent, not a single parent, but a stay-at-home parent, taking the bulk of the parenting?
Speaker 6: Certainly can. Not in the same way as the mother would though, because there are innate differences, as you pointed out, no doubt about that. In fact, the father brings his own very special kind of inputs in bringing up a child.
In certain phases of, let’s say, language development, the father’s inputs are vital. In the way adolescents become stable in their emotions and risk-taking behaviors, the father’s presence is absolutely vital. So in those circumstances, to have a stay-at-home dad is wonderful, I think.
Speaker 7: A child needs both. That’s the reason why in the conservative society or the traditional society, they were given specific gender roles. And in the name of modernity and in the name of a blind mechanical equality, we should not upset that with them.
Pooja?
Speaker 4: I think it’s very important to see the entire picture. I think when you see a marriage, a marriage is a union of two people who come together to create a life together that is harmonious. So therefore, if in that relationship and that union, a child is born, and the father says, I’m happiest when I’m at home looking after the child, and the mother says, thank you, honey.
I’m happiest when I’m going out there and earning and being this provider and spreading my wings financially and economically, and I’m growing in my workplace. And that drives me, and it excites me, and it stimulates me, and I can come home happy. I think it’s a happy, happy equation for all.
What’s horrible is if the father doesn’t like his job, the mother doesn’t want to be at home, and there’s whining, and there’s crabbiness, and there’s irritability.
Speaker 1: By the way, Pooja, in any time, there is not a single male, I can’t think of too many, who say, I absolutely enjoy always going to work. There’s not a single female who says I entirely enjoy going to work. Most people have a lot of fun in parenting, but there are days where you tear your hair out, whether you’re a dad or a mom.
Speaker 4: So it’s never completely, neither side is completely happy. Fair enough. That is a correct argument to put forward.
However, if the woman is driven financially, if she is driven professionally, and then she is made to be a stay-at-home mom because somebody needs to be at home with the child, and you’re forcing that person who would love to be out there in the workplace to be at home, there’s going to be a lot of resentment, a lot of central, you don’t even want to go to work, why the hell are you going to work?
Speaker 8: Absolutely, I agree with Pooja entirely. I think that my wife would have been a very frustrated stay-at-home mom. It wasn’t about finance, it was just about your identity and who you are.
So within these broad parameters of men being better or worse as fathers, there’s also the individual. I think, A, because I was 10 years older, I was much more patient, much happier to be at home, much more stable in who I was. I didn’t derive my identity from my work.
And so I was very happy to be at home to look after this kid. My wife was 10 years younger. Her identity was tied up with what she did, and she was much happier going out to work than she would have been staying at home.
Speaker 9: I think it also depends whether the woman is mentally prepared to enjoy the motherhood. And I think any woman, if she is not mentally prepared to enjoy the motherhood, she should not get into that. She should not give birth to a child.
Speaker 1: But unless, as in this case, the dad says, look, I don’t mind, I’m quite happy to do it.
Speaker 9: I have been a working mother. My husband works too, but there have been times where my husband says, he being a creative person, he says, I need to just relax my mind. And there have been times when he has taken two years off from his work, and he was at home taking care of the children, very happy.
And with two girls around, they feel that whatever mother does, there’s still something lacking somewhere. They feel father is their hero, and he’s the best parent in the world. Mother also, though I’m a hands-on mother, I take a back seat.
So it’s not very important that the father has to be 24-7 there at home 24 hours and say that I’m the best father. I think it also depends how the equation is.
Speaker 3: I think happy children are the evidence of a good mother and a good father. And I’ll agree with Pooja, there’s no rigid definition of what is a good mother and what is a good father. So you could be ready for motherhood, but still want to work a 12-hour day.
And if you’re lucky enough to fall in love with a man who’s ready for fatherhood, and he wants to stay home with the child, I won’t make a judgment.
Speaker 1: Let’s look at the international example. Yes, in theory, this is great, and it’s fantastic that it’s working out in some cases. But the law isn’t completely clear-cut and straightforward on this.
The law is, to some extent, biased. And certainly if it comes to a breakdown in the marriage at some point, in custody and all of that, there is a certain bias, which is what Rahul was saying, the mother would be looking after the children and the father would be working.
Speaker 3: Not really.
Speaker 1: Internationally also.
Speaker 3: I’ll just say that internationally and in India, fortunately now we’ve moved from the parents’ rights module to the child welfare module. When you go to custody court, the court only sees what is in the welfare of the child, which includes wishes of the child, age of the child, and also the role and conduct of the parents. So a father who’s actually a stay-at-home dad would have as much chance to get the child in India or abroad, there is no doubt if the child is under four.
An infant, there is a presumption that an infant is better looked after by the mother, but once the child is above four, it’s a level playing field. It’s the conduct and the choices that the father has made. Most fathers come saying, my mother will look after the child, don’t give my wife the child.
So then the court says, no, we’ll choose between the parents. Okay.
Speaker 1: Sarup, let me get your answer.
Speaker 5: What we are observing from various phone calls from distressed and abused men, we are seeing a trend in the last 10 years. The men overall are giving more concern and seriousness about their child care activity. So let the men working outside or at home, the amount of time they want to give or giving than the earlier is increased.
That is number one. Number two, regarding the risk factor in India, as a house dad, as ma’am says, that in the court, in case of any disputes happens, financially, legally, socially, the losing of child for a house dad is much higher than a woman who is a housewife. That’s not correct.
More than up to five years, up to five years, up to five years, sir. Up to five years, irrespective of anything, the child is going to the mother. But we have the guys, three months old baby, they have taken care.
Six month old baby, they have taken care. Unfortunately, woman has questioned their traditional role. Men has not questioned.
So now the men also coming to the 21st century and want to enjoy the parenting and taking the child care also.
Speaker 4: There are two things. One is stereotypes and one is conditioning. I think men in India are not conditioned to take care of their children.
They’re conditioned to go out into the workplace. Therefore, for them to suddenly be thrust into this role of being a caretaker is very difficult unless it comes organically from within them. The stereotype is that, yes, the man goes out and the woman stays at home.
And unfortunately for men, this works very much against them when it comes to wanting to be a stay at home dad, because they are subjected to enormous amounts of criticism or ridicule. And they have to hear a lot, as you were saying, from society around them. Because they go through it.
Speaker 1: Let’s ask him, did you go through it? I’m going to ask Gautam that too.
Speaker 4: Ask him out about it. Hey, there’s somebody over here.
Speaker 1: Excuse me.
Speaker 4: You don’t have to ask somebody else. So in general, Men aren’t even allowed to speak anymore.
Speaker 8: That’s an age-old reality. Men are not allowed to speak.
Speaker 4: Men are not allowed to finish their point.
Speaker 8: Carry on.
Speaker 4: So in general, a man would be subjected to criticism, a bit of ridiculary. She’s going out and earning the money. What are you doing sitting at home?
It would be a general stereotype. Conditioning says that men aren’t used to the concept of husband and wife. It’s always been come home.
That’s so true.
Speaker 1: No. That’s obscene. Even working dads spend a lot of their time with their children.
Speaker 4: One second. In general, I’ve seen fathers are not as comfortable physically with their children. Mothers are much more physically comfortable with their children.
The hugging, the holding, the kissing, the caressing, and all of that.
Speaker 9: No, Pooja.
Speaker 4: My daughters are just the opposite, Pooja.
Speaker 9: They wouldn’t go to school without kissing their dad. And I asked for it. They said, nah.
We gave it to dad. And that’s enough.
Speaker 1: It depends on whether you have daughters or boys to some extent.
Speaker 9: No, no, no.
Speaker 1: A lot of boys are shy about coming and hugging their dads.
Speaker 9: Ask me. No, not mine.
Speaker 1: Let me come back to the point that Pooja was making, which you were violently disagreeing with. And then I want to get Gautam in on this as well.
Speaker 8: Firstly, this horrible stereotype that males don’t hug their kids. I mean, it’s ghastly. Secondly, as far as…
Speaker 4: No, hang on.
Speaker 8: Let me finish. Secondly, as far as ridicule is concerned, I never experienced any ridicule at all for being a stay-at-home dad. There were some interesting moments, you know, where A is being an older father and then going to birthday parties.
And there were all these 20-year-old women. And they’re looking at this guy and wondering, you know, he’s not the chauffeur. Maybe he’s the grandfather.
What do we call him? Uncle? So, you know, there were those kind of moments.
Speaker 1: But in your case, of course, you’d had a corporate career. So somebody may have said, OK, he’s not decided to move away from it. But actually, one of the funniest moments is going to a PTM.
A lot of dads go for PTMs. I mean, it’s not unusual. Well, not so many because the principal… Let’s say, I mean, in today’s day and age, it may not be the full-time stay-at-home dad, but there are lots of times when the mother can’t go and the dad goes.
Speaker 8: Actually, I’m talking about the Parent-Teacher Association. And the principal walks in and says, welcome, moms. Thanks for coming to this meeting.
You know, excuse me. So you have tasted then.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but it’s not ridiculed.
Speaker 3: It’s the way you’ve taken it.
Speaker 6: It’s your bigness. It’s probably your confidence that actually hasn’t allowed these things to get to you. But if you look at the real world and the sociocultural context, as you brought up, you know, as Howard put it, there’s no question that in our society, being how patriarchal it is, men who stay at home are always questioned.
They’re looked at in a different way. And this I’ve seen in different cultures. For instance, in the West, in the UK, for instance, a stay-at-home dad is absolutely comfortable with the identity.
I see some of those expat families…
Speaker 1: Is that really the case? Or is there some issues in other countries also?
Speaker 6: Actually, if you ask my own experience with dads who come in and very clearly, confidently state that I look after the children. I’m at home. I’m the stay-at-home dad.
And that happens even when they come here as expat families. Whereas when men, Indian men, have to come and announce that they’re staying at home, they do it with a degree of embarrassment and awkwardness. And they often also talk about this.
Speaker 1: Let me come back to Gautam on that. Gautam, what’s your take on this? I should actually get both your and Mohit’s experiences a bit more on this.
Do you face that? Is there awkwardness? Is there embarrassment?
Is there a societal taboo? No, not at all.
Speaker 2: What are you doing? Not at all. So yes, like Mohit pointed out, there has been curiosity.
There has been some amount of questioning. But I have never been embarrassed. And it’s not something I’ve ever been hesitant to talk about either.
I think what the conversation around traditional gender roles tends to ignore is that this traditional idea of gender roles of men and women when it comes to childcare is as limiting of the man’s choices as it is of the woman’s. The idea that women are the best caregivers essentially means that men who want to make that choice seem to be awkward, embarrassed, etc. And this is the trouble I have with a lot of the criticisms of feminism.
People seem to take it as emasculating men. And it’s not. It’s actually freeing men up to make choices that are not limited by gender identity.
So yes, I have never been embarrassed by this. Not for a moment. In fact, it’s a decision I’m more than happy to talk about at length.
And if it helps other men make the same decision, it makes me very happy.
Speaker 1: But Mohit, talk to us about your colleagues. Talk to us about your family. Did somebody come and say, hey, what are you doing?
Why are you giving up your career?
Speaker 2: No. So like I said, within my friend circle, I am not the only stay-at-home father. We have other friends where their father is the primary caregiver.
Among my colleagues, a lot of it has been incredibly supportive. The only people who’ve been curious or befuddled by the choice I’ve made is people who I wouldn’t consider within my social circle. It’s people who randomly see me and come up to me and, like I mentioned, ask me whether I’m a single father or where is the mother, etc., etc. And I take all of those opportunities as teaching opportunities to explain to them that I am her father and I stay at home and I make her food and all of those things.
Speaker 1: He’s making it sound so attractive. I’m five seconds away from taking off this mic and heading home.
Speaker 7: Of course, we are all free to choose, but individual cases cannot be made into a general rule. Family is a unit and a joint responsibility. If you can see the case studies rolled over, slightly what you call the conservative patriarchal values are better than the so-called feminist values.
Speaker 2: Why for a moment do you assume this means that my wife is not involved in the caregiving of my child? That I am the primary caregiver in no way devalues or undervalues or undermines the love, affection and role that my wife has in my daughter’s upbringing. This is not an either-or, right?
Speaker 5: In your family, the provider role has been changed. You have no saving, nothing like a housewife. You have sufficient financial stability.
Speaker 9: Being a housewife is the biggest job.
Speaker 5: So house dad and housewife, I’m risky for a husband. Because financially and legally, if any disputes happen, you are the loser. No law is going to support you.
I’ll give you one example. In the recent Hema case, when the joint child custody was first time allowed by Supreme Court, it was rejected first time with an excuse that no woman in your home.
Speaker 3: In India, we have personal law. So depending on what religion you belong to, your rights are determined. As far as Hindus are concerned, maintenance under the Hindu Marriage Act is gender neutral.
Ma’am, CRPC 124 can only meet a husband, can file or not?
Speaker 1: So let me understand this correctly. So theoretically, his point is that if it’s a dad who’s looking after the baby, and let’s say there’s to be some dispute, he will be entitled to financial security. Custody and maintenance.
Speaker 3: I’ve had a divorce where the woman paid the man. No, CRPC 125, husband cannot file. But in Hindu Marriage Act, you can’t do that.
Speaker 5: That is after divorce, ma’am, not before divorce.
Speaker 3: Not before divorce, after divorce.
Speaker 5: CRPC 125 cannot file. If he gets abused, domestic violence, he cannot file. Hang on, let her answer.
We’ve got your point, ma’am, sir. She’s not coming on the point. I’m asking simple.
CRPC 125, Domestic Violence Act, 4988 for a housewife. Can you introduce violence for two minutes? Can you use this or not?
Speaker 3: Can you say, oh, I’m being yelled at.
Speaker 1: Now, one minute. Okay, you’ve made your point. Now, can you respond to that?
Speaker 3: Now, personal, now, maintenance. One minute. Maintenance is determined by civil law.
The Domestic Violence Act and 4988, the Indian Penal Code. One minute. And CRPC is actually for vagrancy.
Even abandoned parents or little children can apply under that. So, a Hindu husband can certainly go to court and get maintenance before divorce. What for this law has been made?
Speaker 5: That’s a separate issue. Hang on. Why this law has been made?
Sarup, we’ll call you back. We’ll call you back.
Speaker 10: We’ll have a separate debate on that.
Speaker 3: Sarup, that’s a separate debate. You’re unwilling to accept it because your sense of victimhood is too large. If the wife beats him, then yes, he cannot go to the police and seek protection under 4988.
But he can go and get it under grievous injury. Like, say, for example, a man on the street beats him. Because the criminal law has been made to rectify a dominant mischief.
One second, sir.
Speaker 1: Okay, Sarup, we’re digressing a bit from the subject.
Speaker 3: One minute. In the 80s, when this 4988 of the Indian Penal Code came in, every day when you read the newspaper, there was a dowry death. There was a woman being burnt for dowry.
So, therefore, the government felt that criminal law has to intervene into the marriage. But if his wife beats him, he can’t go to the police.
Speaker 1: We are now digressing. Sarup, Sarup, Sarup, I’m going to press the pause button on this debate.
Speaker 10: Different debate, different debate.
Speaker 1: We’ll call you back to discuss the laws. Gautam, again, when it comes to things like jobs and ability, for example, legally, many companies don’t give six-month maternity slash paternity leave. It’s much less for a man than it is for a woman.
So perhaps those are other areas where change might be required. Do you face those sort of problems?
Speaker 2: I think some of these Scandinavian countries have really interesting, have approached this in a really interesting way, that they give a fixed amount of leave for the parents, and either the mother can take it or the father can take it. I actually think compulsory paternity leave is a great idea. It offers the fathers who want the chance to be able to spend time with their children, that ability without a significant impact on their careers.
It offers flexibility within the family unit for mothers to take some time off and fathers to take some time off. It evens out the responsibilities. I think the time may have come to start to talk about paternity leave the way three-month mandatory maternity leave is available to mothers in India.
There are some companies that are far more forward-thinking, and I applaud them for that.
Originally published by NDTV on 4 April 2015. View on YouTube →
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